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Posted By: cleasterwood Dec 30, 2004 - 03:45 am

I recently wrote for a critique estimate on my story and I've added my own comments in () to what the company had to say:

Thanks for asking about our critique services. I've attached our information below but I wanted to address your concerns right away. At over 130,000 words you're trying to sell editors a 500-page book.(IN reality it's 621 pages) That's incredibly tough. (But JK Rowlings did it! ) You've dug yourself a hole. (must have been a big invisible shovel) It doesn't mean it won't sell. (Good!) But it means a lot of editors simply can't publish it because they want fantasy that's 300 pages long or even 250. So you've narrowed the publishers who can look at it just by its length.

But let's say the story needs to be 500 pages long. If you're getting rejections based on the writing, then yup, it's time to see what somebody like me or my colleagues would say about it. (I don't think this has much to do with it personally as I've had an editor friend review it and I used to be an associate editor for an online e-zine.) Because most editors don't read past page 20 or 30 before they decide to reject or read on, we suggest that you send only your first 30 pages or so at first. (Most of the rejections I've gotten are from no more than a query letter.) It saves you some money if you ultimately decide you don't need us to look at the rest of the book.

Now, I'm part of a critique group already and really don't think I need to spend the money for a professional one but I had to ask. This leads me to my questions.

Since my length is entirely too long, should I try to seek an agent in the mainstream genre? I ask because I think my story, while filled with magic realism, may not be exactly what's constituted as fantasy since there are no elves, fairies, ogres, etc. There are however demons and gods. I am willing to revise, don't get me wrong, but I feel that cutting out over 100 pages will have a detrimental effect on my overall story as each scene is crafted to have an impact on the entire story. I tried not to waste time adding filler scenes, although I think there are two.

Also, should I consider 'serializing' the story in a mag to get a head start on building a reader base?

Will the length really have that much of a determental affect on my ability to secure a literary agent?

What would you do?

Posted By: chowder Dec 30, 2004 - 04:43 am

So many questions! Sorry I don't have all the answers, but I'm sure many here will help.

I do know that a 130,000 word MS is going to turn off many agents/editors. It's a hard sell.

If you publish this particular MS in a mag, it may be difficult to interest agents/editors in purchasing the entire book. But you can start building a reader base by writing, and having published, other stories in magazines.

If you're getting rejections based on your query, perhaps take a closer look at that and revise. You might want to post it here or let your critique group have a go at it.

Good luck!

Posted By: cleasterwood Dec 30, 2004 - 06:17 am

Chowder,
I did post the synopsis here. It's in requests and is titled, "Ra's Warrior" so I will add the query to get feedback on it as well. Thanks for the idea.
C. L.

Posted By: Magus Dec 30, 2004 - 08:12 am

I just posted on that topic about the query. I just thought of something about it and will actually post it here, if that's o.k. I think you need to include a little more about the plot of the book in the querey.

I pretty much agree with what Chowder said. 130,000 words may turn away some publishers/agents. But if that's how the story is told then that's how it's told and there's nothing to be done. Maybe you just have to find the right publisher.

Hmmmm... they're talking of 200-250 page Fantasy novels? I was under the impression that they were usually 300-400. Hmmmmm...

I say make any revisions you think are necessary. I'd just recommend to lower the word count a bit and that should help you out a little.

If worse comes to worse then you could always try to develope a reading base by submitting parts to magazines and such. You may want to publish other stories and such, submitting them to magazines and contests. I remember reading in On Writing that you should include a list of other published works of yours. If you do that then you'll have a far better chance of getting your novel published. And if you win any contests for other works be sure to put that down, as it helps a lot as well. Be sure to offer to submit to them any of your other writings you have as well.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

Posted By: Queen Ehlana Dec 30, 2004 - 03:49 pm

130,000 words = 500 pages? What's that about 621 pages? There's a big difference between 500 and 621.

I was projecting that my novel would be about 100,000 words. Based on an Eddings book I checked, that would be about 250 pages. Of course, an Eddings book has way more words per page than a Card book, for example.

The average novel is about 250 pages. The fantasy novels we read are probably more pages because the publishers want to make some of them look longer and also because the best novels tend to be longer than average (I see tons of fiction books that look boring, and they're 150-250 pages).

Cleasterwood, I wouldn't cut it if I were you. A hundred pages is too much, and less probably wouldn't make a difference in your chances of getting published. I'd say just get some other things published and send to as many publishers as you have to. Don't damage the integrity of your story, unless that's a last resort.

Posted By: Magus Dec 30, 2004 - 07:46 pm

I agree with Queen Ehlana on this. Don't compramise your story.

Posted By: woody000 Dec 31, 2004 - 12:07 am

I heard that 250 words per page is average. Big novels very often have more, and so do older novels, but 250 was what I was told. This would give 130,000 words as 520 pages.

Posted By: cleasterwood Dec 31, 2004 - 04:16 am

I'm actually using 12 point courier font,so maybe that's why it's so long. When I cut the size to 10 point font, the page count is more managable at 441 pages. I like to keep the formatting to standards as I'm writing it as well so at the beginning of each chapter the headings are half way down the page. Ehlana, when you said, "the best novels tend to be longer than average" I smiled. I feel the same way. Besides almost every best seller runs over 300 pages and most start off slow paced. Mine, on the other hand, has action in the opening scene and it doesn't stop until the bitter end. I just don't see what difference length makes if the story is constructed in a solid, cohesive manner. Oh, and I love David Eddings work. Mostly my influences are Anne Rice, Eddings, Asimov, and McCaffrey so naturally my style grew from reading their books. It's said to be a best seller one must emmulated what a best-selling novelist does and I firmly believe I've done that. I guess it'll just make it all the better when someone does pick up the novel as I'll know it was harder to secure an agent or publisher for. Many of my writing collegues have told me this story will make it big as long as I keep pushing myself, stay determined, and not give up. I'll just be happy to get published, especially knowing that the length is an obstacle I can overcome.

I really don't want to cut the length anyway as I feel it must be told the way it is, so I guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Thanks for all the wonderful advice.

Lynn

Posted By: Magus Dec 31, 2004 - 11:42 am

I thought that the typical font was size 12 Times New Roman. That's what I always use while writing, and my personal preference is 1.5 spacing.

Posted By: cleasterwood Jan 01, 2005 - 03:16 am

Actually, the most commomly used font is Courier because it's monospaced. Here's what Writing.org had to say about it. It's safest to use a plain typewriter-style typeface like Courier New or Prestige. Such fonts are easy to read and look good when double-spaced. They also make it easy for technophobic editors to estimate text length with a ruler, since an inch of text equals 10 characters if you've used standard 12-point ("10-pitch" Courier or other monospaced type.
Times New Roman, Book Antiqua, or other conservative book-style type is also acceptable, but don't use sans-serif type (such as Arial), script, or exotic typefaces.

So you're right on track Magus, but make absolutely certain you double space everything as 1.5 spacing is never accepted. They ALL want double. But I've also found that 10 point font is acceptable too, so that's why I have no problem switching it over.

Posted By: Magus Jan 01, 2005 - 06:58 am

I just 1.5 space for my convienience, same with my font preference. When I decided to submit to a publisher I'll adjust it to their preference. I just find 1.5 easy to read while not as drastically spaced as double.

Posted By: Sara Mar 08, 2005 - 05:20 am

Little fable for ya: I wrote a fantasy book that wound up being 500,000 words long. I swore up and down that every one of those 500,000 words was absolutely, 100% necessary. And I'm an editor for a living. Two years and multiple rejections (obviously) later, it was three books. A year later and more rejections and it was down to two volumes. And I swore up and down again that every last one of those 225,000 remaining words between those 2 books was 150% necessary. Again, I'm an editor for a living. Finally, last year, I sat down with it again, and my 500,000 word story became a 110,000 word story THAT SOLD TO A PUBLISHER.

Try editing your story again. Put on your Editor's Hat, and remember "it's the storyteller, not the story." A published SFF author told me that once. Took me 3 years to take it to heart, but it paid off.

It's not as hard as it sounds, and it's good practice for editing. Funniest of all, the editor at my publisher said she couldn't believe it had ever been more than one volume -- it was so tightly developed, she couldn't see where more had once fit in!

Posted By: Bmat Mar 08, 2005 - 07:43 am

Good for you, Sara! Thank you for relating this experience. Fascinating!

Posted By: cleasterwood Mar 08, 2005 - 08:12 am

I think my problem is in my style though. Seriously. I've a few peps who are reading over it and critiquing it thouroughly but I'm not sure it'll help. It went from 156K to 130K words after editing. I was told that I should send it to someone who is willing to edit it for me professionally. Any thoughts? My own editing wasn't good enough as I can't distance myself far enough away to see my problem spots.

Posted By: Sara Mar 08, 2005 - 09:05 am

For the record, do a LOT of research before investing in an editing, or "book doctor" service. A lot of them are scams, and you may not need one as much as you think you do.

I invite you to check out my website: www.tiralainn.com. Go to the "For Writers" header, and scroll down until you get to the article, "Putting on Your Editor's Hat." This is all of the tips and methods I use when editing my own manuscripts. They may not work for you, but they did for me -- that's how I trimmed 500,000 down to 110,000 words.

You can also check out the Critters workshop at critters.org. It's a critiquing and online editing workshop for writers of horror and SF/F. You can learn how to edit and critique here, and have readers/fellow authors in the know edit and critique your work. No book doctors, just sound advice. There are time-commitments for joining, so read through all of their stipulations carefully.

I also invite you to read through my site's author's journal, 'cause a lot of the stuff it sounds like you're going through, I went through, too. It took me three years to get "BOOK OF DAYS" to a publishable point, but it was an excellent learning experience and I made some great friends and mentors in established authors along the way. I encourage you -- and any prospective author -- to do the same!

P.S. The best way to distance yourself from your work in order to view it objectively is to actually distance yourself from it. Put it away. Give it a few weeks, a month or two even. Walk away and start another story, or do something else. Join Critters, for example!

Posted By: Magus Mar 08, 2005 - 02:25 pm

Yeah. What you added in the P.S. is what was in a section of Stephen King's On Writing, an awesome book I'd reccomend to ANY author.

He says that whenever he finishes a book he'll immediately put it away and work on something else. He'll write short stories, novellas and even full novels before he'll even so much as look ata it again. Then he goes through the thing word for word and rework the entire manuscript and THEN he'll give it to somebody else to look at. To me it all sounds like sound advice.