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Posted By: Berry Nov 24, 2004 - 11:52 pm

I would like a bit of input on this. I am in the middle of a story where the main character travels with his consciousness (he leaves behind a shell type body) to different parts of the universe. Would that consciousness have a mass? I am leaning towards not but I wondered if substances such as gas are susceptible to aging in the same way as bodies. Could it be feasible that a consciousness would not be affected by time? And with another leap could it be possible for it to travel in time?
Is it even important or I am getting to caught in explainations where they are not needed?
Berry

Posted By: cleasterwood Nov 25, 2004 - 02:02 am

Berry,
This type of travel is called Astral Projection and is actually practiced by pagans and New Age practitioners. I believe that to some extent the consciousness does have a mass but it would look more like a ghost than anything solid. Although the physical would be affected by time, the spiritual would not. However, I think the spiritual would tend to reflect the age of the physical. ie. if the physical ages, so much the spirit form. As far as being able to travel through time, some people say they have traveled through time during astral projection and some people say they have not. I will say this though, in fiction you can do just about anything and have it make sense if you do thorough research to get it as close to reality as possible. I suggest doing an online search for Astral Projection, see what you come up with, draw your own conclusions, and go from there.

Posted By: Magus Nov 25, 2004 - 05:57 am

Astral Projection is pretty cool. I wish I could do it! Sorry I can't add much more to the topic.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Posted By: Berry Nov 25, 2004 - 06:54 am

Thanks cleasterwood, I was aware of astral projection but was trying to stay away from the word itself in my story as it has many connotations that I wanted to be free of. I suppose this leads me to how explicit should I be about the mechanics of such things. My story wasn't intended to be sci-fi but I did want to make it plausible as the characters are based on earth even though they travel. I would like the consciousness to be free of all physical boundaries but worry whether it will make the story less interesting if it is so very unlikely. Does it matter?
Berry

Posted By: Magus Nov 25, 2004 - 06:57 am

I don't think it really does. But, as with just about all ideas, you must make it fit and make it work. As long as it does both you're all clear.

Good Luck and Happy Thanksgiving!

Posted By: Berry Nov 25, 2004 - 08:03 am

Just a little note Magus, you can do it. It is possible; I have done it myself through dreams and once through meditation. It did not last long and was very scary but it definitely happened in fact I found something that I had been looking for in the dream, when I went to the place upon waking there was my lost item. I don’t have a theory other than the world is a mind-bogglingly weird and amazing place in which many things are possible, on earth, in our solar system and hopefully beyond.

Posted By: Queen Ehlana Nov 25, 2004 - 10:19 am

Well, if the consciousness is not changing, if it remains exactly the same from one point to another, then it's not aging. Change = time. If the consciousness is active, it is changing, passing through time (even if this time is completely separate from the rest of the universe), and aging. I don't know what you mean about the gases aging... Do you mean deteriorating? If so, that's up to you. It's like asking if a god ages.

Posted By: Magus Nov 25, 2004 - 08:01 pm

Really, Berry? I didn't think of it as an actual possability, merely as an interesting idea. I'd imagine if something similer happened to me I'd be quite shocked, to say the least.

Posted By: Berry Nov 26, 2004 - 04:22 am

Does time exist though? Can something really pass through time or is time simply a way of measuring events and relationships between things? I am a little unsure of this whole area and find it generally confusing but, if time is not a separate entity but a concept used only to measure the relationship between here, there and the space in-between would an object with no mass be able to simply go from here to there without travelling? I used the idea of gas because it permeates the universe, it hangs around needing no container, but I do not know whether it changes its structure or properties when/as it travels through space. If I can sort this out in my head I might be able to decide whether all moments are in fact one moment and really time is just a way to order experience, this may mean that my characters free of physical boundaries can exist in any time period they choose, as all would be available to them. Does that make sense at all?

Posted By: Magus Nov 26, 2004 - 05:08 am

That's an interesting concept.

What is time?

I have to say that I'm not the qualified person to answer with any accuracy. Both sides have good points and arguments that I don't rightly know what to say on the subject.

Posted By: cleasterwood Nov 26, 2004 - 08:36 am

For the purpose of my book, time runs on a continual loop. Each dimension, time-line, and reality run side by side but at different speeds than the time from which the MC originates. Therefore the MC doesn't age 12 years but 1 year during their adventure in the past. That's the formula for the way my time-lines runs. 1 month in the present or modern world is equal to 1 year in the past. Took a while for me to figure that one out too!

I also explain the concept of possession as being creatures of another dimension trying to contact the people in this dimension, unknowingly causing the person in our realm to go insane, have stigmata, etc. The inflicted person either dies or the connection is severed because the creature ceases to exist. I have put a lot of esoteric texts into my story and taken alot of years to research these phenomenon to where they add some sense of the real yet surreal world. There's tons of astral projection or spirit travel, being sent to Hades because a spell-bound lover kills the MC, time jumping, demon fighting, love, hate, jealousy, mystery... oh, I'm repeating myself aren't I?

Berry,
Back to subject, sorry. These are just my opinions, take them for what you think they're worth.
Q. Does time exist though?
A. Only in our physical minds, spiritually, no, it doesn't.
Q. Can something really pass through time or is time simply a way of measuring events and relationships between things?
A. Both really. It's a way for us to measure events in this existence and it can be passed through or manipulated.
Q.I am a little unsure of this whole area and find it generally confusing but, if time is not a separate entity but a concept used only to measure the relationship between here, there and the space in-between would an object with no mass be able to simply go from here to there without travelling?
A. It is still considered traveling. The atoms still have to manipulate something mass or space. Entities are difficult creatures to figure out. And I don't think you could classify it as an entity, per say.

Magus,
Yes, Astral projection is a real occurance that a few people can accomplish. Anyone can do it if they study the subject long enough, practice, and prepare themselves for what will happen. For most it occurs during the twilight hours when you're body is between the waking and sleeping world. Some people can initiate it while awake if they've mastered the technique. Berry said it well, "I have done it myself through dreams (this is called Lucid Dreaming)and once through meditation(this is Astral Projection). It did not last long and was very scary but it definitely happened in fact I found something that I had been looking for in the dream, when I went to the place upon waking there was my lost item." It is very scary as you fell your soul being pulled from your physical. If not properly controlled, it can lead to disembodiment. I.E. You can get lost and not be able to find your body again.

I guess you can tell I'm really into pagan/New Age beliefs. I read once that most Sci-Fi/Fantasy author's don't really believe the things they write, but I'm not your typical author. These things do affect our world, existence, and life. It's really boils down to getting in touch with Mother Nature.

Posted By: Queen Ehlana Nov 26, 2004 - 10:17 am

Okie dokie... I don't really know what Astral projection is... I don't think you'll be able to persuade me that it's real either.

As for the issue of time... Yes, it exists. It's called the fourth dimension. And yes, it is basically a measurement. When people talk about the "fabric of the universe," they're being pretty literal. Imagine the universe as a vast piece of cloth... If one piece/layer of this cloth is three dimensions, then all the layers put together would be time. Just as one can measure things in 3D, one can measure them in 4D. But the higher dimension obviously does not exist without the dimensions beneath it. That's why we say space-time when referring technically to time.

And that's about all I know on that matter.

Posted By: Magus Nov 26, 2004 - 12:14 pm

Have any of you read Michael Crichton's novel Timeline? Th movie blotched it up, but it had an interesting concept of time and time-travel. I recommend that everybody read it.

Posted By: Berry Nov 30, 2004 - 08:19 am

A quick message for Queen Ehlana, I wonder about your comment 'I don't think you'll be able to persuade me that it's real either'. My initial reaction to this was confusion, you don't know what it is but you don't believe it's real? I certainly wouldn't try to convince you as it is unnecessary but I do wonder whether as Cleasterwood mentioned, most fantasy writers do not believe what they write, I am obviously not expecting an author to believe everything but surely what we can imagine is the basis for how we choose to act and what we choose to believe. I try to make my fantasy plausible so that it is possible to truly imagine( whether I have succeeded remains to be seen), those are the stories that stay with me, much of the fantasy I have read is soulless, and lacking that quality, that attention to what is known about the world already which allows the reader to believe. I also keep in mind that William Gibson was instrumental in bringing about the very thing that we are communicating with. It did not exist when he wrote about it but one of his readers clearly thought it was worth a go. So I wonder do you believe anything you write is possible? I have realised that this isn't a quick message, so i am sorry Queen E, i hope you'll induldge me.
Berry

Posted By: Queen Ehlana Nov 30, 2004 - 02:08 pm

"you don't know what it is but you don't believe it's real?"

Do you believe in things just because you don't know what they are? I don't know exactly what it is, but I have a vague idea from what cleasterwood said. It's that entire kind of thing that I have happened to never believe in.

What exactly do you mean by a "soulless" piece of writing? That sounds a little arrogant, but I can't tell since I don't know for sure what you mean.

"do you believe anything you write is possible?"

Technically... yes. Realistically, there is only one fantasy aspect in my novel that I think is even close to a possibility. But I've been much inspired by stories of things I knew were far removed from reality.

Posted By: Magus Nov 30, 2004 - 04:32 pm

It's similer with me. Some of my ideas are theoretically possable, or at least theoretically plausable. But some are not. Obviously the fantasy isn't as realistic as others. But I have a few that seem to me frightening realistic. Others are more out there. Does anybody else find this vast array as to the possablity of their fiction?

Posted By: cleasterwood Dec 01, 2004 - 04:49 am

I try to base my fantasy on things I believe are plausible, it adds a realistic touch to it. As I said earlier most fantasy writers don't believe what they write but I, however, do-at least some of it anyway. Magic, astral projection, manipulating objects with one's mind, and all these things "New Age" ideas are possible. Let me explain briefly what I mean when I say "Magic". Magic is basically using positive mental actions by tuning in to the forces of nature to aquire a positive outcome. I don't mean that you cast a spell and it happens immediately. They don't work that way at all. A spell takes time to come to fruition and doesn't happen instantly, they never have. Magic is a way to communicate with Mother Earth and the powers that drive our universe. Scientists have even done research on people who bend spoons- this is manipulating objects with only the mind and could be constituted as magic.

You've got to remember one thing, humans only use 10% of their brains. The other 90% is wasted space because we don't use it or don't know how to tap into it. Einstien was a man who, for some reason, used about 13% of his brain and there aren't many people out there today that do that. So, with that said, those who do utilize more than 10% of their brain have tapped into the source that is hidden within all of us. They can do things that to us, may sound far-fetched but in reality if we as humans applied ourselves, we could do it as well.

It's all about the power of the mind.

Posted By: Berry Dec 01, 2004 - 08:29 am

I find it hard to really get across what I mean by soulless, when I have found a book, or piece o f writing that has really stayed with me it feels different to when I read something that feels like there was no emotional investment in it. Its not even to do with the type of book for me or even the quality of the writing sometimes, there are some books I have loved and they are not what many would call worthy or erudite, it’s just a feeling I get. I know that’s a little fuzzy, does that make sense?
I do however wonder how far to go sometimes though, I have started a story that starts off in this world but I let my imagination go and have ended up with something so fantastical I am unsure as to whether it is ridiculous or not. If I create a new world and make all sorts of things possible because the physical laws of the world are entirely different to ours, can I just make anything possible? Do I have to make the things add up?

Posted By: Spiderkeg Dec 01, 2004 - 01:49 pm

I think of Astral Projection much like how Neo and Morpheus saw themselves in the Matrix. They had no form, and could project any image or style of themselves as they saw fit. Just because you age in the real world does NOT mean your visible self will reflect.

I believe that because an Astral Projection is a created and displayed through a process of the mind, that only things dealing with the mind can detect/see the image. It would be viewed as a misty, transparent visage that could only be seen and perhaps heard. The image would not be able to interact physically with the real world, unless you have a very well thought up reason why.

Keep in mind that such a projection is created through mere thought (psionics) and is subject to such things. Only sentient beings would be able to "see" the visage, though most animals would probably be able to "feel" it through the crackle of psionics. Interacting in the real world, such as in the case of an Astral Projection, would require a great deal of mental stress (telekinesis) in order to move physical objects.

Astral Projection is like living a dream, but where you're awake and everything is real time. A dream in the respect that you can "envision" however age or look you have, because you are not restricted to the physical. It's all in the mind. Now while your projection will die once your physical body dies, it might may or may not be the same if your projection dies or gets cast back. It would be possible though to "busy" your projection (as in getting lost, or trapping) in which case your physical mind would be linked to a place and you would not be able to quit the projection. In time, the body would die.

Anyone projecting themselves would appear as though a ghost, with very little substance or impact in their surroundings. Would be a good way to "spy on" or "warn" people.

I include this in my story, so I've just read up on it a lot and given it careful thought.

Posted By: Magus Dec 01, 2004 - 02:20 pm

Einstein used thirteen percent of his brain? Just out of curiousity, where did you get that statistic. I had already heard human's used ten percent of their brain. I'm just curious.

Imagine what we could do with 100% of our brains. Telekinetic maihem!

Posted By: cleasterwood Dec 02, 2004 - 02:35 am

I'm not exactly sure where I got the 13% mark, but it was so strange that it got stuck in my head when I did hear it.
I was watching the Sci-Fi channel yesterday, go figure, when they had the Secret KGB Psych files and boy was it interesting! They were researching ways to harness psychic energies in the Soviet Union during WW2 and actually accomplished it. However, the devices used were sold on the black market after the fall of the Berlin Wall and democracy was initiated. These devices were said to have used pyschic energies to do several things among them was to give the person/s a heart attack by focusing the energies through the device! And yes, again, these devices worked as they tested them on employees. It was even said they tried to assissinate Yeltsin, I think, and he had to use pyschics as guards so they could absorb the energy to divert the attack.
So the psyche can do many things if applied appropriately.

Posted By: Berry Dec 10, 2004 - 04:43 am

I spent a year in a neuroscience research department a few years ago, and basically from what I could work out (being that I am not a neuroscientist but a psychologist) they can only see, i.e. measure, 10% of the brain working, which is why they had decided that we only use 10%. In theory lots of our brain may be back up material as when one part is damaged the other can be adapted to perform the same functions. There is also the possibility that we have lost some of our abilities since evolution does not oversize for no reason and if we didn't need the space then it is unlikely that the brain would have continued to get larger. I don’t know where I’m going with this maybe I just like the idea that there is a whole unknown quantity, a proper mystery, not in another dimension, not through magic or gods but right there in my head. What is strange is that psychic activity does not seem to show up like other types of functions do. I don’t know why or whether it is simply the method of measurement that is insufficient.