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Scifi and Fantasy Forum: Off-Topic Conversations: Dan Brown, Da Vinci Code & The Vatican
Dan Brown, Da Vinci Code & The Vatican
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Posted By:  Utora Apr 04, 2005 - 07:32 am |       | My belief is that Jesus was a married man. Married to Mary Magdalene? Maybe. I believe that Jesus was a Man of God not The Son of God or God himself. If God wanted us to live a certain way then why give us free will? Why gift us with individualtiy? The Bible is full of hipocrasy. Why do people put so much blind faith in it? Wake up, it was not written by God. Have you never played chinese whispers. The problem with all religion is that it is not enough to just believe in God, it is not enough to just have faith that there is a higher power.
| Posted By: fanuilh Apr 04, 2005 - 08:00 am | | If God wanted us to live a certain way then why give us free will?
Because without free will, our actions mean nothing. The biggest difference between God and Satan is that God gives us a choice; Satan doesn't.
Wake up, [the Bible] was not written by God.
No one said it was. It was written by men who lived during those times. I think most discerning people realize that.
The problem with all religion is that it is not enough to just believe in God, it is not enough to just have faith that there is a higher power.
I submit that your problem is not so much religion, but your own lack of faith. For many of us, faith is enough. Faith is powerful.
| Posted By: Magus Apr 04, 2005 - 06:18 pm | | "Because without free will, our actions mean nothing."
True. This is a very true statement.
But I disagree with your following sentence, "The biggest difference between God and Satan is that God gives us a choice; Satan doesn't."
The truth is that there is always a choice, whether it's with God, Satan or Whatever. There's always a choice. It's always your choice. Don't go blaming it on the devil.
That's one thing that I loved about the book Needful Things. It's not that they weren't given a choice. It's that, when given the choice, albiet the cards were a little one sided, they chose their fates then.
I suggest that you all read the book. It's got a pretty powerful message, and I don't want to give any more of it away.
| Posted By: fanuilh Apr 04, 2005 - 08:10 pm | | There is a choice between taking the path of good or the path of evil. Once you've chosen the path of evil, all other choices disappear. Satan's way is the only way, and changing your mind isn't one of your options. God would take you back; Satan would be unwilling to release you. Getting out is harder than you might think. Think the Mafia, only with supernatural capabilities. The one thing that I've always been aware of is this: evil isn't subtle. It announces itself. For some people, this is attractive.
I read that book a few years ago. It's fiction. It's a good read, of course, Stephen King is a good writer and he spins a good story. But as for being a philosophical thesis -- nah.
| Posted By: fanuilh Apr 04, 2005 - 08:18 pm | | Speaking of book recommendations -- C. S. Lewis' The Screwtape Letters is a very good example of what I'm talking about. It's a collection of letters between a demon and his nephew, whose task it is to turn a man towards evil. It's been many years since I've read it, but one part I remember (and this is why I said what I said) is the demon tells his nephew that God loves his humans no matter what, and it baffles him. He says as long as the humans continue to try to do good, even if they fail, God loves them. Satan, on the other hand, demands perfection.
Yeah, this book is fiction, too, but C. S. Lewis' credentials where Christianity, theology and philosphy are concerned vastly eclipse Stephen King's.
And yes, that's the same C. S. Lewis who wrote The Chronicles of Narnia. Which themselves are about Christianity.
| Posted By: Ariel Apr 06, 2005 - 03:06 pm | | Life is neither black nor white,but many shades of grey...
| Posted By: Magus Apr 06, 2005 - 04:41 pm | | How do you not see the philosohpy in it?
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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My point becomes clearest near the end of the book, where it is revealed that everything, all of their needful things, were merely illusions. This sends the message that evil itself is nothing more then an illusion, an ensnaring veil cast over ones eyes obscuring, even recreating, the truth. Which it then implies that truth itself is nothing more then an illusion and a perception. It also makes a powerful message on Western Capitalism and Consumerism, don't you think?
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END SPOILERS!
| Posted By: fanuilh Apr 06, 2005 - 06:12 pm | | I didn't say I couldn't see the philosophy in it. I meant I thought it was a good story, but nothing else. The philosophy (or theology) in it, such as it is, is populist fluff.
In my opinion.
Evil is not an illusion. It exists.
Which is why I brought up C. S. Lewis. He's the better qualified of the two to be discussing good vs. evil.
In my opinion.
| Posted By: Magus Apr 06, 2005 - 06:20 pm | | I never said that I belive that it is. I'm just saying that the story suggests it and I find it a very interesting topic. Personally I hold Needful Things to be in my top five favorite books. LOTR is number one. Up there as well is The Long Walk and Jurassic Park.
When one has no argument of logic, sound reasoning, to put forward, instead of addressing an issue, one can ask and exclaim:
"How can you not see the point here? It is obvious!"
It ought to occur to the enthusiast in my work hypothesis who contends there is a point of interest in some matter in discussion, that in reality, there may very well be no point. The matter in my work hypothesis may very well be meaningless and the enthusiast may have well been mislead. Or chosen to align with the greedily consuming majority who display monumental ignorance, if not much worse, by finding fireplace scrap as a book of some value. Many who are unable to think do exactly that.
When one asks "how can you not see the philoso-hp-y" in it?" makes it obvious one not only has not really any notion about the concept, one is also self-considered such a clever person that one finds it natural that everyone else should be able to understand what one does. If this is not {self-edited PC-wise for egocentricity and arrogance are not extremely polite words}.
Oh, and by the way, as a member of general profile, can I add a few spoilers here, or will they be ... moder(n)ated and the general profile member will be warned in prime tone to avoid rendering the thread optically challenging to read?
Anyway, they would hardly be something gravely wrong, would they, now? *soft smile*
| Posted By: fanuilh Apr 07, 2005 - 07:11 pm | | by finding fireplace scrap as a book of some value.
*snort*
Stephen King gets a bum rap from some circles. Some literati find him to be too ... what's the word ... bourgeois. If I were him I wouldn't care what anybody thought, he makes more money than anybody could spend and he enjoys his job, so what the heck. He has never claimed to be anything other than what he is -- a storyteller.
But high falutin' he ain't. And he'd be the first to tell you that. He's still a good writer. Although I wouldn't take his stories as anything like a guide for life. Unless you're a budding serial killer....
*in blind trust in the family, LB throws a hand over the fireplace edge to grab a couple of books*
Literature depicts the social consciousness of the times.
For example, The Wild Bunch marked the end of the classic Western which faded to be replaced by detective stories.
Serial killing is a localised social pathogeny phenomenon, in worldwide climax aspect. So are authors of the theme, subsequently.
| Posted By: fanuilh Apr 08, 2005 - 05:54 am | | A niche for everyone and everyone in their niche....
| Posted By: Magus Apr 08, 2005 - 06:59 pm | | I'm personally more of the opinion that the storytellers of the time shape and mold the culture of the time, rather then simply "sitting in" to it. Certainly the bolder and more dynamic works do this. Take a look at his Dark Tower series. I'm betting that it will have an impact on fantasy, even if only a small one. ANd Tolkien, don't get me started on his contributions to sociaty and culture.
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