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Posted By: Magus Dec 17, 2004 - 10:28 am

You have to take a look at this. It's horrible and shocking. I didn't think that a person would actually do such a thing.

Posted By: manji Dec 17, 2004 - 10:58 am

Is that in Oklahoma? If not, then what a coincidence, because we got a missing fetus in OK, too!

Posted By: Magus Dec 17, 2004 - 11:18 am

It's in Montana.

Posted By: Magus Dec 17, 2004 - 02:21 pm

THE LATEST!

Posted By: fanuilh Dec 17, 2004 - 06:15 pm

Missouri. The state abbreviation of "MO" is Missouri and that's where the mother was murdered. Not Montana. That's "MT". And the baby was found in Kansas. That's "KS".

Oy.

Posted By: Talon Sinnah Dec 17, 2004 - 07:51 pm

Anyway it was still a sick crime no matter what state it was in.

Posted By: Magus Dec 18, 2004 - 06:48 am

I've never been very god at my postal abbreviations. Thank God I never had to be tested on them... or maybe I should have been. That at least would have made me learn them.

But yes, it is one of the, if not the, sickest crime(s) I have ever heard of in my life.

Posted By: fanuilh Dec 18, 2004 - 10:11 am

The postal abbreviation was only at the beginning of the article. Further into the article it actually mentions the state by name. I had assumed you read the article; perhaps you missed that part.

This type of attack has happened before, unfortunately. And in 1995 Debra Evans (scroll down to the last article in the page, the state listed is Illinois), was murdered and her full-term fetus was cut from her and kidnapped. The baby survived, fortunately.

Usually these crimes are perpetrated or instigated by women who want babies of their own but can't.

And yes, it's sick.

Posted By: Magus Dec 18, 2004 - 12:41 pm

I did read the article. But, after reading it, I went through the whole hooplah of coming here and posting the topic. I think it was simply lost on my mind for the moment.

I actually saw an episode of Law and Order that reminds me a lot for this. They argued that the fetus was bron, and therefore murder. But the defense showed that there was no way to prove that the child was born or simply just came out. SO they lost the case.

But I never expected for there to be any similer to this in real life... ever. It's sickening.

Posted By: Starfire Dec 22, 2004 - 04:48 am

Something like this happened in Philadelphia a few years ago. Three people went and killed a woman and cut her baby out of her. The motive to kill her was to get the baby. I cannot imagine how one woman can pull that off. It is also very odd that she found her victim on the internet. I hope they throw the book at her.

Posted By: Magus Dec 22, 2004 - 09:21 am

I hope it's a big book, bigger then trusty ol' Webster and fitted with nine inch rusty spikes. I hope they throw it at her repeatedly and without mercy!

Posted By: Bmat Dec 22, 2004 - 11:04 am

I can't figure out the charge- kidnapping resulting in murder (?). It would seem that the charge should be first degree murder plus kidnapping. It seems that the cold-blooded murder of the mother is taking second place to the stealing of the baby.

Posted By: Magus Dec 22, 2004 - 03:46 pm

I agree that murder should come first. Let her hang for that, and then add on kidnapping.

But I've learned a lot by watching shows like Law and Order among other things. Maybe there's some political or technical reason for it. Maybe there are other forces at work and the ability to charge for murder first just isn't there.

Posted By: fanuilh Dec 22, 2004 - 09:24 pm

It always alarms me when someone says they've learned something about any profession from watching a television show. There are so many logic holes in episodes of Law and Order I don't even pay attention anymore. It's entertainment, not education.

I found some info over at FindLaw about definitions of crimes. Looks like charging someone with a kidnapping resulting in a death leaves it open to charge them with first degree murder. Under kidnapping it says: "Under federal and state law, kidnapping is commonly defined as the taking of a person from one place to another against his or her will, or the confining of a person to a controlled space. Some kidnapping laws require that the taking or confining be for an unlawful purpose, such as extortion or the facilitation of a crime." So holding the mother captive for the time it took to kill her and take the baby qualifies as kidnapping. Under first-degree murder it says: "Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the 'felony murder rule,' under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- usually arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery."

I think they're trying to make certain the death penalty remains an option. But surely there are others out there who actually have some expertise. Merle?

Posted By: Magus Dec 23, 2004 - 06:45 am

I also looked a lot of things up online and read a lot of books. What I meant was that the show intruiged me so that what I've learned since then is largly due to watching it, however indirectly.