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Scifi and Fantasy Forum: Sci-Fi Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow: Realistic Fantasy
Realistic Fantasy
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Not realism, but plausability.
In fantasy, as with all genres of fiction, one ingredient that cannot be overlooked is good old suspension of disbelief. If, going back to Lisseut's comments that sparked this whole discussion, a farm boy has never picked up a sword he might not fair well against an adversary versed in such a fighting art. But if said farm boy is schooled in the ways of swordplay, perhaps by a crotchety old man or a a pesky old woman, then perhaps we can begin to suspend our disbelief. For many years I got away from reading fantasy for the reasons Lisseut lists above. Then it was off to college where 'they' told me science fiction, fantasy and horror were 'bad'; especially for a person like me who writes. Anyhoo, without citing examples of stories and novels that fall into the aforementioned genres (oh hell, here goes: 1984 by George Orwell - science fiction, The Lottery by Shirley Jackson...you get the picture...), it took me some time to get over the high-falutin' advice the old profs gave me. Of course, with the exception of one, none of my professors could write directions from campus to their homes much less create an original work. But going back to Lisseut's list of grievances, I won't mention names but recently I read a novel by a famous sci-fi fantasy author who managed to give no originality to any of his characters (cardboard cut-outs one and all, they were). When does it happen that an author no longer feels the need to pour any heart into his/her work, to churn out slop no better than stories coming out of the worst writing workshops? My guess is around the time he/she leaves the oblivion known as low-list sales and becomes a mid-list author. Or maybe, just maybe, there are no more stories left to tell...NAH!!! The best piece of advice I ever read concerning the writing craft said this: sooner or later(I'm paraphrasing here) every mature writer reaches a point where he writes the books that he would want to read. I want to give credit to John Gardner but if I'm wrong someone please let me know.(Gardener was the author of 'Grendel' which is a splendid rewrite of the Beofwulf tale - a book taught at some colleges, I might add, that falls into the fantasy genre)Anyway, it's back to work for me(writing, that is).
I'm thinking all the complaints I've read are universal. It seems that the majority of
music, movies, books, etc., are mediocre, probably because in order to sell, it has to appeal to the lowest common denomenator.
Genre in the sense that is used here is simply a setting, no? I mean pretty much all fiction involves some sort of conflict, and whether the villian wears a cowboy hat & wields a six shooter, wears a helm and wields a magic sword, or wears space helmet & wields a laser rifle or a million other examples,
man against man, man against nature, man against himself, the setting is irrelevant.
Quality is dropping accross the board.
DEO DUCE FERRO COMITANTE
L e f t s B a n e
Fantasy does not need realism or even logical storylines. Dumb plots often produce the best stories. A stupid story with enough heartfelt emotion and effort will go a long way.
This Scottish boy throws rocks for fun. His parents were killed by the British so when he grew up he hated the Brits. All this goob wanted to do is farm peacefully. Of course an evil king sends an army that kills this Scottish farmer's girl. William Wallace, the farming goob then murders the well-trained English with his sword and a peasant army armed with sticks and antlers. (Wallace makes love to a princess, later on.)
Lets get sillier. Go back to what Lisseut mentioned about the unrealistic princess. Let's just say this princess meets this-oh I don't know-...call him a stableboy named Wesley. Let's say she's snooty and treats him like dog doo-doo.
Well, anyway, they fall in love and he disappears returning years later as The-Man-in-Black. He saves the princess from the evil prince. Cheesy, right? Fans love the Princess Bride.
This fat little butterball finds an evil ring that makes him invisible and steals a crystal ball from some Snow White Ripoff dwarfs with neatly rhyming names. He has an old wizard friend who shoots sparks at talking wolves. Somehow he saves the day by tricking an ancient dragon. Bilbo was lame but millions adore his goofy adventure.
Realism is not the key. Passion and hard work are the secrets of quality fantasy. Some cheeseball authors do slip through the cracks. Their stories could be as realistic as the dictionary but it would not make the tales better.
Thankyou Lisseut. I have to say that reading your post has helped me alot in developing my book (i.e. avoiding the cliches of fantasy) and it has lead me down a completely different track to what I had planned. I look forward to perfecting the story so i can publish it here. =)
If I may throw in a strong 2 cents [and try hopefully not to offend or flame]...
What totally turns myself from mainstream fantasy writing is that it tends to read as little boy fantasies - like little bullied children who spent their entire lives wishing they were powerful enough to conquer those bullies, either through supernatural forces [ie, magic] or else through unrealistic physical prowress ["the hero" archetype].
I don't care at all if people with massive insecurities want me to live out their ego-stroking fantasies. They can do that themselves in their own bedrooms.
What folks like me want is at least some element of *realism*. Why? Because it creates reader *association*.
Tolkien was the first great master - but his heroes at least have some minor flaws. No character struck out as some ego-fantasy.
And yet, here we are, the Fantasy market is flooded with those little boy fantasies imitating Tolkien's world but not his depth [which wasn't even that great to start with].
Sure, it can be fun. I read a few when young and it can be entertaining enough to a little boy. But now I'm all grown up I demand just a little more thought from my reading 
One bit of unrealisticness I cannot stand though is when the hero in the story is the only smart person. The bad guy never guesses his move, all of his enemies are gullible (ie. when disquised as a german soldier, speaking german is not required. A german accent will do.) and I really hate it when the hero rescues the populace from a big evil thing with a plan simple enough that my little brother could have come up with it.
I also hate it when the bad guy is stronger, smarter, more powerful, has invincible armies, and still manages to lose to the farmer.
That's my two cents.
Posted By:  Phoenix Nov 04, 2004 - 10:45 pm |       | That's one thing The Hobbit and Harry Potter have in common. They are written for a different audience than The Lord of the Rings. They target children. That is why they project the type of hero you just described: a one hero show. It is the impersonification of the dream of those bullied kids.
I too hate these heroes that come out of the blues: farm boy suddenly becomes sword master in 24h! Who would have though?
The heroine in my story is different. In The Phoenix Saga, Part I - The Phoenix Child, I tell the story of how this young woman who finds herself in the middle of a war grows into a hero of Legend. As she struggles to regain control over the events happening in her life, it is her companions who help her through. Of course, she starts alone on her journey, and through different events, people sort end up tagging along, then they become her companions, and then her friends.
If you're interested, there is more information on my website, explaining more of the story.
http://www.phoenixuniverse.com
| Posted By: Magus Nov 05, 2004 - 01:50 pm | | The more I hear about your book the more I want to read it. Is it a widely publisized book? Do you think I could pick it up at my library? I'm in Illinois, if that helps you at all.
Yeah, Tolkien wrote The Hobbit from the stories he told his children at night. They make one fine bn=ook. I still enjoy reading it, so do many other people I know, older, younger and peers alike.
| Posted By: Phoenix Nov 05, 2004 - 07:01 pm | | Being my first book, and being only three months old, I really don't think your library got it, unless some miracle happened over there...
But perhaps you could ask them to order it, see what they say, who knows?
| Posted By: Minstrel Nov 05, 2004 - 07:48 pm | | I think fantasy can handle a certain amount of unreality because it's fiction. If the author is skilled, at some point, it doesn't [b]seem[/b] unreal though. That's the beauty of the mind.
Consider this plotline:
A male of aproxx. 17 years, falls face downward in a patch of Paradoxica poison in the first two pages. He is picked up by a hag who lives at the bottom of a castle/tower. She tells him he's horribly deformed, and never to go outside without is clothing. He is mute. He serves for years. He escapes on a sky-ship (powered by "anti-gravity" metal called sildron) and through a battle, is captured by pirates. He is rescued by a man who reveals that he is female. That is, that HE- the main character is female. They discover a treasure, she falls in love (with someone else, the rescuer is married and an old adventurer besides), she gets her face back.
Is stunningly beautiful.
End of Book 1
Cheap plotline. But very good writing.
| Posted By: Magus Nov 05, 2004 - 09:45 pm | | I'm sad to say they didn't pass their refferendum this year and don't have an increase in funding. I'll see what I can do, but it's not the most likely thing in the world.
So who'd (s)he fall in love with? Having been thinking of him/herself as a man her/his entire life, wouldn't that make him/her sttracted to females? That would make it a little interesting having a kind of love triabgle there.
Love triangles today seem to be simple geomatry to many. But, if done in the right manner, it can be something more; an important plot guide and event(s).
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