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Posted By: Iznardi Aug 19, 2003 - 10:26 am

I think what you're saying is that the first time the second Sinclair met the first Sinclair he was actually the first Sinclair in his own timeline but he was the second Sinclair in the first Sinclair's timeline, whereas the second time the first Sinclair met the second Sinclair he was the second Sinclair in his own timeline even though for the second Sinclair this was the second time he'd been the first Sinclair.

iz

Posted By: MerleZ Aug 19, 2003 - 01:26 pm

ROTFLMAO,iz!!!

Posted By: ZimNova Aug 19, 2003 - 02:09 pm

Valen, right you are.
Iz...riiight, pass the bong dude.

I posted all that from memory and that scene was in *WWE Pt. 2* not Bsq'ed. So I dug out the tape and watched the entire episode even though I was only going to watch the last part. Funny how that happens 'cause this story is great TV.
Delenn is not off screen during that exchange though.

As to the Sinclair seen with Zathras in both Bsq'ed & WWE, with Zathras saying; "No, not the one". That's the same Sinclair all right, just Sinclair before he enters the "time loop". My take has always been that Zathras is not referring to Sinclair becoming Valen, because that hasn't happened yet at this point in WWE Pt.2 or to Sinclair being Entil'Zah [leader of the Anla'shok] but rather he's "not the one" Zathras was working with just moments before but in fact the Sinclair from the past, two years ago [2258] that we saw in Bsq'ed in that vary same scene which at the time, in S-1, made no sense.
Or, he could be refering to Sheridan who of course becomes "The One" [Entil'Zah] many years in the future.
Or, he could be refering to Delenn because that's who he calls "The One" when it's her who is in the spacesuit in WWE.
The explaination lays in the statement Zathras makes at the end. To Sinclair; "You are The One who was", to Delenn; "You are The One who is" and to Sheridan; "You are The One who will be" adding yet another thread to the story arc.
Don't ya love how we're still talking about this 6 years after WWE aired?
That's the beauty of how JMS wound the arc threads from Bsq'ed into WWE answering everyone's questions about the mysteries from Bsq'ed and demonstrates to me he knew full well when shooting Bsq'ed what he was going to reveal 2 years later in the WWE two parter.

As to why Michael O'Hare left the show. Copied off of UseNet then posted on May 20th, 1994 at the Lurkers Guide the complete explaination from the Great Maker himself JMS can be read: Here

Posted By: Bmat Aug 19, 2003 - 02:28 pm

Thank you for the link, Zim.

Posted By: ZimNova Aug 19, 2003 - 04:41 pm

Your welcome Bmat.
That was for Valen for the most part to clear up why Michael O'Hare left the show. I'm sure you remember all the: Sheridan; "Champion or Chowderhead?" debates that went or for years over at the old SciFiVine site.
Some posters would just never accept Sheridan even after he returned from the dead, won the Shadow War, won the Earth Civil War saving Earth from tyranny [ Clark, the Home Guard & Night Watch], freed Mars, married Delenn, formed the Interstellar Alliance, bacame Entil'Zah and gave of himself, with a little help from Lorien, the "ultimate sacrifice" towards the cause of light.

Posted By: Nomad Aug 20, 2003 - 05:51 am

OK Zim...take a breath...then another hit.

Posted By: Valen Aug 20, 2003 - 07:54 am

TANKS ZIM! I haven't seen that message before. Does anyone know if O'Hare ever posted any thoughts on this subject, or is JMS's words all we have on it? If O'Hare was so saught after that he was worried about being type-casted, then where are all the show's/movies/plays that he's appeared in since leaving the show. I have looked at web sites concerning him... not a lot out there.

I will still hold true that it was a mistake to change the characters. There seemed to be so many ways to play the characters. It would be different if Sinclair was mentioned more during the last 4 years of the series. Seems the character was limited to such a small presence considering the fact that he was the original commander of B5 and that he was playing such a large roll in preparing the Rangers for the Shawdow War. Something Sheridan was MORE THEN HAPPY to take responsibility for at the end! (sorry... still can't stand the chowderhead) Some things will never change I'm afraid.

JMS should have let his wife take over the show... that womans only mistake was marrying the guy, at least her fondness for Sinclair, shown in the book she wrote, shows that she does have SOME taste! IMHO...

Posted By: Nomad Aug 20, 2003 - 08:21 am

JMS' wife wrote a book? What book?

Posted By: Valen Aug 20, 2003 - 08:26 am

To Dream In The City Of Sorrows, written by Kathryn Drennan. She JMS's wife.


http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/novels/009.html

Posted By: MerleZ Aug 20, 2003 - 10:24 am

What I've always said: Sinclair was a cool character, but O'Hare was wooden.

Posted By: Valen Aug 20, 2003 - 10:30 am

Merle ole buddy... just about every character in Season One was "wooden" to one degree or another. They at least had a chance to grow though. Maybe O'Hare might have done the same.... we'll never know.

But I agree... it's the Sinclair character that I was the most upset about being removed. They could have replaced O'Hare with someone else, and kept the character, and I wouldn't have had too much of a problem with it.

Posted By: Bmat Aug 20, 2003 - 11:27 am

I was more annoyed about the loss of Ivanova, especially since the story was never straight. I tend to believe the version that she wanted to come back but didn't get the papers in time- or whatever that version was.

Posted By: ZimNova Aug 20, 2003 - 12:09 pm

Bmat. Claudia's story about appearing in Babylon's season 5 with direct quotes from both her & JMS is also at the Lurkers Guide. It's kind of a long read but gives one an idea of how difficult this whole TV entertainment industry is on the business side.

Claudia's story

Posted By: Sindatur Aug 21, 2003 - 10:46 am

Wow, what an ugly mess, I truly feel sorry for the one who is telling the truth, because there are several statements made by JMS and Claudia that definitely contradict each other.

Posted By: ZimNova Sep 18, 2003 - 01:27 pm

Posted By: SammyBear Sep 21, 2003 - 10:45 am

ROTFLMAO

Posted By: ProfCrash Feb 17, 2004 - 07:29 am

I lean towards believing JMS, as he was backed up by the cast members. I always found it suspicious that when everyone else signed an extension and Claudia did not. That just strikes me like she was looking for a way out and found one. Had she signed the extenstion, like the rest of the cast, this never would have been an issue. I guess that is the reason I lean towards believing JMS.

Not to mention, losing the character of Ivanova messed up season 5. We lost the entire Ivanova wants to kill Garibaldi but Sheridan won't let her. The Ivanova goes after Garibaldi for drinking, you know she would not have been sympathetic. Ivanova dealing with the death of Marcus. Ivanova had grown into a really cool story arc and it just disappeared. I can't see JMS letting that go easily.

I went to Fantasitic Con in LA between season four and five and the cast refused to discuss the subject. It was clear that they were all more then a bit angry. People kept asking, Jerry DOyle got more then a bit pissy with the third or fourth fan who asked, which pretty much ended that line of questioning.

Posted By: ProfCrash Feb 17, 2004 - 07:47 am

heheh gee who might Zim be referencing....

Let me see, Sheridan was willing to risk the entire war effort because he was pissed off about his dead wife being used by the Shadows and because his Dad had been captured.

Sheridan's logic surrounding Z'hadum

"Gee they took my wife, altered her, stuck her in a machine, and then sent her back here to lure me intot he most obvious trap inthe face of history. I think I should go to Z'hadum even though I have been warned by the most powerful creature I have ever known, Kosh, that I will die if I go to Z'hadum and that it is a really bad idea. Oh yeah, and the women I love now told me 20 years in the future not to go to Z'hadum. She only knows what the result of that trip is going to be and I was only looking at Centauri Prime on fire and a strange creature living on Londo's neck. Those two things might not be tied to the fact that I went to Z'hadum so I should ignore her advice and Kosh's advice and go to Z'hadum."

By going to Z'hadum, Sheridan opened B5 up to attack (Garibaldi ends up altered and betrying Sheridan, we'll get there in a minute), the Shadows spread their ships out on other worlds to rpevent another direct attack (So those worlds are destroyed by the Vorlon planet killers, increasing the death count by how many billion), and the Shadow minions flee the planet in order to continue their masters war.

But yeah, Sheridan got lucky, met Lorien, came back from the dead, and was eventually able to figure out that the Shadows and VOrlons were really kids scared of the Dark.

(For the record I have marginally strong feelings about this. I really need to get a life. understand that I need a life, really I do. Its just getting one is soooo much work.)

Sheridan's logic surounding his Dad.

"Gee I am the head of the good guys fighting tyranny at home and trying to stop Clark from killing ven more innocents. I need to end this coup at home and return Earth gov to the hands of the voters. Now my former security chief, who has only attacked me on TV and then decked me before leaving the station and easily returning to Mars and who has not been arrested even though he is wanted for treason (which is in no way suspicious to me)has called to say that he can help me get my father back. Curiously enough, my father was safe until about the time that Garibaldi left B5 and the number of people who know about his blood disease is really small and no one in Earth Gov seemed to be interested in tracking him down through his meds until Garibaldi left B5 but I am going to ignore all of that. Garibaldi wants me to go to Mars (yeah I am a wanted war criminal and my face has been plastered all over the place)alone (who needs a few Rangers who Garibaldi has never seen to watch my back)to plan this rescue. Sure, Ivanova and the captin of the Alexander are telling me this is a really bad idea, I am going to go any way because my Dads life is more important then the billions of lives that hang in the balance of this war."

No offense, but the dude is a Chowderhead. I cannot think of one great war leader in history who would put his own personal life (Wife and Dad) in front of the larger war effort. Marcus is suppose to let Ivanvoa die and fight on bravely. Garibaldi is suppose to be able to walk away and be annoying with no one looking nto what is happening, but if you mess with my family, I am coming after you no matter what? Please.

Sheridan got lucky both times. It happened to turn out fine but not because of anything that he had any control over. He put his family ahead of the entire galaxy in going to Z'hadum and in front of the well being off Earth in going after his Dad. Maybe they look heroic but in reality, they were both irresponsible decisions that endangered an entire war effort.

CHOWDERHEAD

Again, I freely acknowledge that I need a life.

Posted By: ProfCrash Feb 17, 2004 - 07:57 am

Merle, your right, Sinclair was wooden. I think some of it was O'Hare and some of it was how the character was written. O'Hare has admited that he is a stage actor and that Sinclair was one of his first TV gigs and that you play scenes differently. Sinclair was also written as someone who was pretty tightly wound.

(shrugs)

That aside, his character, to me, was more complex and interesting then Sheridan. Can you see Sheridan discussing religion, culture, or literature with Delenn or any other Race out there? Sheridan was a history buff, but I never got the impression that he studied the history of the other Races on B5, Sinclair had. Sinclair discussed Minbari tactics easily with Ivanova, much to her surprise. He was more intellectual and had had a much harder road then Sheridan.

Sheridan was more charasmatic then Sincalir. Sheridan had also been built up as one of Earth's heros from the Earth Minbari war. He had been given prime jobs and crews. Sincalir was portrayed as a traitor after the Earth Minbari war, given crap jobs and crews. Remember the discussion in the pilot between the Ben and Laurel? She said that she was intentionally breaking all the regs at a crappy posting in order to be tossed out of Earth Force. Sinclair was sent to take over command (at a crappy posting) and set things straight. B5 was suppose to fold in 6 months, once reason why Sinclair was sent there, that and the Minbari insisted on him, which only made the posting that much more problematic for him.

The two characters come from very different back grounds. For me, Sinclair was more interesting. Sheridan drove me batty, as you all know. Sheridan survived and succeeded because he was surrounded by good people who could run things when he went off on a jaunt and got himself in trouble. Part of their devotion to Sheridan is undeniably because of his charisma, I won't deny that, but if he had less qualified folks around him he would have been in toruble. As I seem to recall, it was Sinclair who brought abourd Franklin and Garibaldi. It was Sinclair who trained Marcus... Delenn was at B5 to keep an eye on Sincalir....

Hmmmmmm I see a pattern emerging here....

Posted By: Bmat Feb 17, 2004 - 08:59 am

Your comment about Marcus brings up one of my pet peeves about the writing. Marcus was brave, clever, skillful, and devoted to the cause. He almost got killed defending it. Yet he deserted in the midst of a battle to save the woman he loved. Maybe it was to show that he was indeed flawed, but I think it was out of character.

I wonder if all of the characters were flawed. Hmmm...