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Posted By: Bmat Mar 23, 2002 - 05:28 am

I see three major characters making what I consider unwise decisions because of love for a woman.

Marcus left mid-battle for Ivanova.

Lennier left Sheridan to die because of jealousy with regard to Delenn.

Londo turned back to the Shadows because of his murdered true love, Adira.

Did JMS have some message in writing this way? Is it simply a device to present poignancy?

Posted By: Bmat Mar 23, 2002 - 05:34 am

Of the three examples above, I especially was disappointed in Marcus. A Ranger has sworn total allegiance to the one, and as a soldier, desertion should have been unthinkable. Yet he placed a woman he loved in higher priority. That seemed out of character, to me, for a person who had earlier been willing to die for the one when in personal combat.

Lennier also seemed out of character. Yes he loved Delenn and made no secret of it. But it seemed against his personality to leave anyone for dead, especially one whose death would cause agony to Delenn.

Londo's choice was in character. He had already shown himself as acting on whim - not examining all aspects. And he'd already danced with darkness.

Posted By: LightBrigade Mar 24, 2002 - 04:24 pm

Bmat brought about a delicate and profound issue concerning B5 characters . Because where I live not all B5 seasons have been presented , she has helped me share the masterpiece . Moreover , in relation to her initial post here , Bmat generously explained :

"Marcus: A Ranger- a military group highly trained and totally loyal to Valen "We live for the one we die for the one." In fact, Marcus had shown himself willing to give his life for Valen in one of the episodes- he knew he could not win a fight yet he kept on, knowing that he would die- his opponent stopped short of killing him. Yet in the major battle in the Shadow war, Marcus discovered that an alien machine existed on Babylon 5 by which he could give his life energy to save the dying
Ivanova, his love. So he left the battle at a crucial moment and returned without permission and saved her, dying as a result."

I strongly think Marcus acted absolutely in character in the episode where he dies for Ivanova .

The fact a large part of the audience did not expect that turn , the fact it has been considered irregular in the character frame of the Ranger (*) , the fact many will still wonder , merely points the finger to one of few typical devices JMS has been using abundantly in the episodes of the epos .

Marcus was a Ranger in B5 . I ponder on what a Ranger in B5 means . It is a sum total of both the understanding we have of a Ranger as the sense developed historically since the 7th century AD , not merely in the recent years in Texas or elsewhere in the USA , adding the Minbari concept of the dedicated defender and guardian .

Marcus loved Ivanova . I ponder on the role Ivanova played in B5 . Hmmm .... as in real life , some people do not need the badge . They are such by character and deed .

JMS manages to make the point elude by presenting Ivanova in the shadow of the B5 leading character , even when he is shown to enjoy the simple gifts of life , she is not the one to offer him that . It was a bitter complaint speaking on her behalf mainly " you are about to go where everyone has gone before " . The woman said .

That was coupled with her asking John to grant her the favour to lead the B5 fleet , a sister in arms of John , presented to the audience much to their displacing the character to consider her a mere fighter shuttle pilot . Although JMS had disabused us of the notion when , Michael I think , asked her " I hope such transmissions never occur again " because she had used a station tool to talk to her dying father . JMS granted her the "gold channel" facility , for what that channel meant . JMS went on playing with her character in many more incidents . The woman knew in shuddering " He's gone " ( on Za'ha'dum ) after John made the jump . The other person who felt it was Delenn . Comfy !

Ivanova gives her life to defend B5 ? No , she does not . She defends what B5 stands for . The One , in the B5 universe . Some people do not really need the badge .

The Ranger leaves the battle field ? No , he does not . He steps into a more terrible and awesome field , still a killing field , where his own life will guarantee only Zathras in B5 will have a sad end , in symmetry , not Ivanova . She will continue , with one Ranger inevitably lost in another Line battle . Only that this continuance will be powered by not only her sacrifice , but also by that of Marcus , the British accent , gentle man .

Being a Ranger , Marcus knows what balance is and how he can and must keep it . The loss of his life is a justified act in the Ranger rationale . Only that here , Marcus enjoys the fruit of his status - I 'd like to think of it as _ level _ of consciousness . He is free to act as a Ranger and as a man , an individual who is free and entitled to decide for himself . At that level , or status for the lay audience , he acts in perfect balance , satisfying the Ranger Ledger , one Ranger lost anyway , and his own personal drive and wish . His love . Such balance is attainable at a Ranger status , oh ! forgive me , Ranger level I meant .

As in real life , JMS shows this wilfully assumed duty which requires incessant training and skills rare , is often expected and demanded to manifest .

The heritage of the Ranger has passed on now , in another Ranger , who will have one more good reason added to her character and her infallible instinct : the Energy of Marcus's love for her and his Love to serve the One . Not Valen , of course , one might conjure here .

I feel JMS must have now shown us what a Ranger is . They are of the stuff , whose death may make them "more powerful than you can ever imagine" - if I am allowed to quote further , where this energy which keeps them alive , the energy of the force is born and sustained by the acts , the deeds of beings , by Life .

Ranger : Eastern Roman Empire , by then named the Byzantine Empire , 7th c. : Trained soldiers offered land on the borders to own and defend . Their deeds evolved them to mythical beings of gentle character but warriors of might with the Greek tradition where they challenge the Grim Ripper and defeat Death .
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This is why where Marcus appeared to be ill yet insisted he fought another Minbari who intended to assassinate Delenn , in Marcus's effort to stop him , the other Minbari did not stop short of killing Marcus . The assassin did not kill Marcus . Could not and in his own interest he had better not .

Posted By: MerleZ Mar 25, 2002 - 11:46 am

Bmat, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of Lennier. I found him to be moving more and more toward the self-righteous as time went on. His unrequited love for Delenn ate away at him. He quite clearly thought John unworthy - hence believing himself to be quite worthy because of his selfless (seeming) devotion. Remember when Lennier said that his love for Delenn was more "pure?"

And remember, too, Lennier's reaction when Morden told him he would betray the Anla'shok? Totally out of the question. Lennier's belief in his own purity, his own essential "rightness," was taking a huge hold on him. A person who is so convinced of his infalibility is bound for failure. "Pride goweth before a fall."

So I found it completely reasonable to expect Lennier to leave Sheridan to die. Who would know? And Delenn would grieve, but would turn to a more pure lover. End would justify the means. Those who are convinced of their own rightness tend to being the most Machiavellian.

Just my take on it. But then, I fell out of the Lennier fanclub as soon as he started spouting how pure he was.

Posted By: Bmat Mar 25, 2002 - 12:18 pm

I took the "pure"-ness of Lennier's love to mean spiritual as opposed to carnal.

Posted By: MerleZ Mar 26, 2002 - 05:20 am

I agree with that, Bmat. He considered himself above carnal desires, hence he was more "pure." Again, a sign of his conceit. He just thought he was better'n everyone else, especially that goofy human Delenn fell for. Remember his comment in the lift? "Woohoo?" Note his scorn.

If I forgot to mention this above, it was obvious he was jealous. Yet Lennier never could have admitted this to himself. If you don't recognize your failures, they are bound to jump up and bite you.

Posted By: Bmat Mar 26, 2002 - 05:47 am

The incident of G'Kar and Londo's struggling together and dying. Would someone please remind me about that? I can't remember if it was just a vision or was supposed to have happened?

Posted By: Sindatur Mar 26, 2002 - 06:14 am

Bmat,

Yes it happened at the end of "In the Beginning" Telemovie, and also the end of the flash forward from War Without End part 2, right after Londo released John and Delenn.

Very important event, the common belief if that this is part of Londo's three more chanxces for redemption. (SAve the eye that can't see...)

Posted By: Bmat Mar 26, 2002 - 09:05 am

Thank you, Sindatur! I wonder if someone would tell me how that fits in with Save the Eye? I appreciate everyone's being so helpful with these questions!

Posted By: Sindatur Mar 26, 2002 - 10:29 am

Having failed these you will have 3 more chances for redemption...and at the last, if you have failed the other two, you must surrender yourself to your biggest fear.

To the best of my belief, the most commonly accepted beliefs for them is:

Save the Eye that cannot see = G'Kar's eye couldn't see the gloriousness of Cartagia, therefore he plucked it out. Londo should have done something to stand up to Cartagia.

Do not kill the one who is already dead = Letting Sheridan go at the end of the flash forward in War Without End Part 2. He would have succeeded here, but, the keeper awoke and would have undone Londo's redemption by killing Sheridan afterall, before he had a chance to get away from Centauri Prime.

Surrender to your greatest fear = Since the keeper awoke before Sheridan completely got away, this was Londo's last chance, so he let G'kar kill him (While he killed G'kar) as the keeper awoke. This was surrendering to his greatest fear, the fear that he couldn't help his people and entrusting the care of his people to his successor.

Posted By: Bmat Mar 26, 2002 - 11:04 am

Thank you, Sindatur!

Posted By: LightBrigade Mar 26, 2002 - 02:53 pm

I have always looked forward to Sindatur's interesting enlightenment .

He plucked nothing out . He had it plucked out .

G'Kar's eye could not see Cartagia's glory : nothing like that is indicated of what I remember . Please compare : " His look bothers me ! Hmm… I don't like his look "… hand on chin and prattle , turns his back to G'Kar and gestures . " That one "… showing the left eye .

Both these points are of further significance .

Re : Save the eye etc. : This is of the masterpieces JMS has allowed in the story as a spoiler , signifier and milestone . In detail ,

A spoiler : Please note the director's angle ( film director's point of view on the very scene and the shooting angle ) when Kosh reveals one of his natures to fly and save the falling B5 leader . Everyone sees the deity they have in their conscience . All but one , probably because , though physically equipped with two hearts , in that case his spiritual heart is blind . ( See also later dialogue of Londo w. G'Kar in prison on Centauri Prime ) . It is dead , and in the language play JMS has often used , one may understand as 'morden' . Londo , or another Morden , already posing as an agent of the Shadows ? No , a mere tool .

A signifier : The eye that cannot see . Of course it can not see like a natural eye , it can't serve the sense of optical vision . Of optical vision . In that spectrum it cannot see . Thus , by ellipsis , it _can_ see .

A milestone : It is the eye which can see the Keeper . The same eye which saw Londo has no heart in the prison . And saved it should be for both the purposeful role in the final scene when the Keeper wakes in Londo , and also for the audience saved it should be as a spoiler not of the story but of another subtle meaning JMS has in store for the audience . I wonder what that may have been .

The third eye , dad , my daughter is asking me here now .

Posted By: LightBrigade Mar 26, 2002 - 03:53 pm

Lennier : I would find her reaction natural were she a female Minbari . Oh ! I am sorry , I meant his reaction - were he …

The lesbian colour Bmat saw in Xena ( see only yesterday's post in that board here ) is also present in B5 .

Lennier : do we remember his looks as compared with those of Delenn before her metamorphosis ? Let's put the two pictures side by side . And let us put their tone of voice side by side , and Lennier's instinctive moves to touch Delenn ( he never does though ) , and compare them with those of Delenn to touch the B5 leader . Let's us extend this touch with the innuendo approaches of both Lennier towards Delenn and Delenn's own approaches towards the B5 leader . One characteristic scene is in the Japanese stone flower garden .

Of course Lennier will let Sheridan die ! She is driven by one of he most primitive and archaic instincts in the universe : Jealousy !

But love saves , one may argue !

Not when the nature of the Minbari has not changed ( Lennier ) to allow her to mate with the strong seed in the story ( B5 leader ) .

Like the Master Ray Bradbury so marvellously remarks in 'The Golden Apples of The Sun" in "The Foghorn" , when the object of our love refuses _ our _ love , we usually seek to destroy it .

Posted By: LightBrigade Mar 26, 2002 - 03:54 pm

Please compare in ref. to above :

Lennier's mentioned deed regarding Sheridan and and

"Being a Ranger , Marcus knows what balance is and how he can and must keep it . The loss of his life is a justified act in the Ranger rationale . Only that here , Marcus enjoys the fruit of his status - I 'd like to think of it as _ level _ of consciousness .

He is free to act as a Ranger and as a man , an individual who is free and entitled to decide for himself .

At that level , or status for the lay audience , Marcus acts in perfect balance , satisfying the Ranger Ledger , one Ranger lost anyway , and his own personal drive and wish . His love . Such balance is attainable at a Ranger status , oh ! forgive me , Ranger level I meant . "

Lennier and Marcus : Both Rangers , someone said ?

Posted By: LightBrigade Mar 26, 2002 - 04:25 pm

Londo and Adira .

After Morden murders Adira to drive Londo as he wished , Londo himself shows an emotional character the audience had not been accustomed to seeing in Londo , the opportunist by nature , atavist by vice , manipulator by continuous practice and conspirator by habit .

The following is with Londo's voice in the background faintly heard ; the non-English , kind of oriental , rough , harsh , with effort pronounced English , alluding to one particular aspect of what we know as civilisation of mankind , tovaritz .

Such harsh in character Londo is himself , yet , he melts . He breaks to the point to make the audience feel pity for him , sympathise , and sense his heartbreak .

For those who miss the point , Vir makes sure that Londo speaks once more of a delicate heart in his chest . " My father used to come home and take his shoes off … and , Vir , I think I have forgotten how to dance . "

It was remarked above that Londo acts in character following Adira's murder and turning to work with and for the Shadows even more consistently . In character as the harsh opportunist or as the patriot - have them abandon Selini , now , your majesty ! - , as the soul in love, I wonder .

Posted By: Ian Viking Mar 27, 2002 - 01:47 pm

Ummmmmmm......
"Save the Eye that cannot see"
I always thought that was the Centauri Eye of the Republic - it was the politicing to get this that first envolved the Centauri with the Shadows was it not?
Was it Morden who gave it to Londo after the Shadows destroyed the raider ship carrying it and the rebel Centauri?

Posted By: Sindatur Mar 27, 2002 - 02:00 pm

Ian,

That wouldn't work out, because that had already occured when Lady LAdira told him about his 3 more chances.

Also, saving that eye with the help of the Shadows is what got them into the alliance with the Shadows in the first place.

Posted By: Ian Viking Mar 28, 2002 - 04:47 am

Silly me, only 2 seasons apart though

Posted By: Sindatur May 10, 2002 - 06:37 am

Spoilers for Crusade, PsiCorps Trilogy and Centauri Prime Trilogy (If there's anyone left to spoil)
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I'm currently reading the Centauri Prime Trilogy for the second time and noticed something I hadn't noticed the first time.

In the Crusade episode, with the flashback to the Telepath War, had JMS been able to get Patricia TAllman for a reasonable price, the red haired telepath that blew herself and PsiCOrps up would have been the Character Lyta. During Crusade year one, this was already in the past.

In Book 2 of the Centauri Prime Trilogy G'KAr references Lyta told him about Vir becoming the Emperor one day and mentioned they had been spending alot of time together of late. The Technomage Finian had just made a reference to Gideon (of Excalibur) getting close to finding a cure, and another character (maybe Vir)said that was the same thing they were saying last year.

Which tells me that at least a year after the start of Crusade's timeline G'kar and Lyta were together, which means she couldn't have died in the telepath War, which took place prior to Crusade's timeline. Yet in the PsiCorps Trilogy at the beginning of book 3, I believe they make a passing reference to Lyta being gone, and I believe it was connected to the Telepath War.

So, when exactly does Lyta die, and how?

Even though JMS has said that Lyta was meant to be the suicide bomber, I've always believed that it was unbelievable that Lyta would have had no other way, but to blow herself up as well. She just was too powerful by the end of B5 to have to be that desparate, and she cared too much about leading her people.

Posted By: fanuilh May 10, 2002 - 10:04 am

Lyta was the suicide bomber. Actually, she was the bomb (the Vorlons designed her that way on purpose -- and she makes reference to it in one of the final episodes of B5). JMS has said that the reference G'Kar makes in Book 2 that he and Lyta had "spent time together" recently was a mistake. It got past him.

Lyta would have been perfectly willing to blow herself up if it was what had to be done to take out the Psi Corps heirarchy and set her people free. She was, by that time, wrapped up in a martyr complex. Too much time spent in close contact with Byron, I guess....