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Posted By: Phoenix Jan 15, 2005 - 10:37 pm

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but here goes.

I'd like to know if anyone knows where to the Elves are going. All I know is they left Middle Earth.

But where to, I wonder...

Ideas? Speculate?

Posted By: Magus Jan 16, 2005 - 09:41 am

They left to Valenor, to the Gray Havens where they were made.

I believe they said it several times throughout the book and movies. But, to really understand where they're going, you have to read The Silmarillian. Either that or talk to a Tolkien-Scholar... or my sister.

Posted By: Aldan Jan 16, 2005 - 09:51 am

Actually, they went to the Gray Havens to get on ships to TRAVEL to Valenor. The Gray Havens are in Middle Earth. As for physically where they are going? I always pictured it as being more of the "angel grasping you by the shoulders and lifting you into heaven" sort of thing... where the ship is, en-route, transferred from the one plane of existence to the next.
Now, I know, I know... they used to travel betwixt Valenor and M.E. all the time, but that was BEFORE they chose to stay in M.E. (please note that I didn't say "ME", since I do NOT want any elves [or Elvises, for that matter] staying IN me...) to work against Morgoth and Sauron.

Posted By: Magus Jan 16, 2005 - 02:28 pm

And Ungoliant. Don't forget about Ungoliant. Without him then we wouldn't get Shelob.

Posted By: Phoenix Jan 16, 2005 - 08:22 pm

I've never read the Simarillian... Now I understand.

But I know Sauron, not the others. Who are they?

Posted By: Magus Jan 16, 2005 - 08:44 pm

Remember the big Spider in Return of the King? She was Shelob, the last of the Giant Spiders. Ungoliant was the first. Morgoth was a pretty evil guy who stole the three Silmarils, beautiful jewels the likes of which had never been seen before and whose making could never be duplicated. He then fled across the sea to Middle earth. To steal the Silmarils he recruited Ungoliant.

It's really an interesting book. I'd recommend it. Butm be forewarned, it's very dry reading. The book is really just the kind of overview/notes Tolkien had for his book. It describes everything from the making of the Gods t the Elves and Dwarves and Men, everything up to The Lord of the Rings. And there have to be fifty or so main characters; all elves, all related and all their names beginning with "FAR" or "FIR".

Dry and hard to follow in places, but wonderfully insightful and imaginative. Honestly, my sister agrees with me on this point as well, Tolkien couldn't have completed this work even if he had lived to be 250 years older then when he died. It would have been a master work in which even The Lord of the Rings would have paled against. But, alas, it is not what it was meant to be and never will.

But, if you read anything from it, read "Of Beren and Luthien". It's a beautful story that is any Tolkien fan's must read.

Posted By: Aldan Jan 17, 2005 - 11:11 pm

Also, it tells a bit of the story (as a sidenote) of Elrond and his brother Elros, who chose to be human and was an ancestor of Aragorn...

Posted By: gnollslayer Jan 18, 2005 - 05:16 pm

Did anyone else on this site ever collect the Middle Earth cards they made back in the late '90s?

Posted By: Aldan Jan 18, 2005 - 05:57 pm

Nope. Didn't know they'd had 'em.

Posted By: Magus Jan 18, 2005 - 05:59 pm

I know that they made ones from the movies... but the movie(s) wasn't out in the late '90's.

Posted By: gnollslayer Jan 18, 2005 - 06:26 pm

It was a game called Middle Earth: the Wizards, and had a lot of good original artwork based on the books. There were also quotes from Tolkien's books on some of the cards, and it told where to find them. I think a lot of the shots from the movie were based off of artwork from these cards, at least they looked that way.

The premise was that you play as one of the wizards, and you go around mustering the Free Peoples to stand against Sauron. You could win either by mustering the biggest army or by destroying the One Ring, which was harder. The game ended once a player ran out of cards in their deck.

I also remember later expansions let you play as the Nazgul and try to lead Sauron's armies against the forces of good. The depth and complexity of the game fit well for such a well-crafted world, and it's a pity they stopped making them. I should very much have liked to buy a pack... one last time.

Posted By: Magus Jan 18, 2005 - 06:29 pm

when you consider that it was the late ninties then you have to realize they were probably already shooting the movie. Plus, they had Allen Lee and John Howe. The only thing they were issing was Tolkien himself!

Posted By: MerleZ Jan 19, 2005 - 06:09 am

Phoenix, just a little more on where the Elves are going. In Tolkien's mythology, the earth (Ea) started out flat. Valinor was found in the utmost west. You could sail from the shores of Middle Earth to Valinor and back again. Then, when Morgoth stole the Silmarils and slew Finwe, High King of the Noldor (the elves of Galadriel and Elrond's kin), the Noldor revolted against the rule of the Valar (kinda like gods, but lesser), and returned to Middle Earth to make war on Morgoth. The Valar warned them that the way back to Valinor would be shut to them, and that their war on Morgoth was without hope, since Morgoth was of the Valar, and the Noldor were not sufficient to overthrow him.

So then the Silmarillion is mostly about the war of the Elves on Morgoth, and their utter defeat by him. But along the way, Beren and Luthien, a mortal man and an elf maid, managed to steal one of the three Silmarils from Morgoth's iron crown. Earendil, son of a mortal man, Tuor, and King Turgon of Gondolin's daughter, Idril, actually managed to sail back to Valinor, with the power of the Silmaril, and pled for pardon from the Valar, on behalf of elves and men. And so the Valar made war on Morgoth, defeating him utterly.

The Three Houses of the Elf Friends (Edain) had aided the Noldor in their wars on Morgoth, and were nearly destroyed. But as a reward, they were given an island, called Numenor, to live on, and also given life several times that of lesser men. Elros, the brother of Elrond, became the first king of Numenor, and chose the life of Men. So he died, but after living four hundred years. Elrond had chosen the life of the elves, and was thus immortal.

So the Three Houses became the Numenorians, and became a powerful seafaring people. But the Valar had set a ban on them sailing to Valinor. They were not permitted to sail out of sight of the west coast of Numenor, though they could and did sail to Middle Earth. After many years, the Numenorians fell from their high station, based upon the lies of Sauron, a servant of Morgoth who escaped the wrath of the Valar. Sauron convinced the last king of Numenor that the Valar were withholding immortality from men, and that all they had to do was to move to Valinor and they would be immortal like the elves. So the Numenorians indeed built a great fleet and sailed to Valinor, to make war on the Valar. And when they set foot on Valinor, the world was changed. Numenor sank beneath the sea, and the great fleet of the Numenorians was swallowed up. The world was made round and Valinor was removed from the circles of the world.

Aragorn was indeed a decendent of the Numenorians who were known as "the Faithful." They refused to make war on the Valar, and led by Elendil, they escaped the ruin of Numenor. Returning to Middle Earth, Elendil established the Numenorian kingdoms of Arnor in the North and Gondor in the South. It was the men of Gondor and Arnor who joined the elves in the Last Alliance, and defeated Sauron. Elendil, and thus Aragorn, were direct decendents of Elros. Making Elrond Aragorn's uncle. Arwen was his cousin.

Thereafter, only the elven ships could still find the "straight path" to Valinor, and their ships left the circles of the world, never to return.

Posted By: Aldan Jan 19, 2005 - 06:43 am

Nicely done! It's been too long since I last had the chance to read my Silmarillion, but all of what you said is correct, according to what I remember. Since you weren't going through trying to do a plot synopsis of that book, I'll just mention that it really goes into detail about some great heroes (Hurin and Turin) and their mistakes. The Silmarillion is quite a dark book, but fascinating...

Posted By: Magus Jan 19, 2005 - 01:30 pm

Yes. I loved mythology from the getgo. This is pretty much the mythology of Middle earth. Awesome even at it's worst and mind boggling at its finest.

Posted By: Phoenix Jan 19, 2005 - 03:20 pm

Thanks MerleZ for the long acount. Very interesting.

Gnollslayer, have you tried ebay to find those cards. You can find so much stuff there, keep watching, who knows you might find what you're looking for.

Posted By: Neurolanis Jan 20, 2005 - 02:04 pm

I started reading "the Silmarillion" but then I got my laptop and got distracted. I loved what I read, about the music notes which create the sounds, sights, and feels of the world. If I were to write a myth for Life Creation, that's exactly how I would have symbolized it. Tolkein has such a beautiful way of telling it, too.

Posted By: gnollslayer Jan 20, 2005 - 02:12 pm

I don't collect them anymore. I was just mocking the line in Return of the King where Bilbo asks Frodo if there's any chance of seeing that old ring of his.

Posted By: Magus Jan 20, 2005 - 04:54 pm

Yeah, Neurolanis. But it's too bad it's not really the story, only the notes for it. Deatailed, oh my how ever so detailed, but notes none the less.

It's awesome, by the way. By the end I think I threw it on my bed when I had finished. But it is incredible! Just a very slow read.

Posted By: Aldan Jan 20, 2005 - 09:53 pm

One thing to add to my Hurin/Turin thing... and that is that I believe that they are cousins - that their fathers Huor and Tuor are brothers...